Thread: Simple controller (no computer) for AC powered props

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yea, that stuff is awesome huh!?!

i just bought a whole setup (except for cameras and computer stuff), hopefully it gets here fast and i can tell ya about the stuff first hand..

from what i can tell, however:

controllers -
electric eye - yup, just your basic motion sensor.. someone moves, 120vac appliance goes on..

remote controller - (the button pad-looking thing), press a button, 120vac > on/off or dims light

transceiver - (antenna wall plug-in thing) receives commands from controllers and sends them to appliances

appliance module plugs into wall and switches/dims appliance based on commands receieved from transceivers

and yes, i think (with some creativity + work) these devices could solve the problem..

maybe:
place one motion sensor ealier in the haunt so gemmy #1 goes off first?
or
program gemmys on a time schedule using the computer software (this shouldn't be too hard.. and maybe i can make a tutorial or something if my stuff hurrys up and gets here!)

of course, i don't want to waste anyone's money.. so definitely think about it before taking any of me advice.. he heh

yar!
again, how much time do ya have to complete this project?

I already ordered one picaBoo 105 which will control two Gemmys (my Lab room haunt), but now I'd like to get the two Gemmy witches into a Coven area and the picaboo is expensive.

If the X10 works out, it looks like I could control several other props for only a few bucks more than is needed for the witches.

Originally Posted by ded_spyder

yea, that stuff is awesome huh!?!

i just bought a whole setup (except for cameras and computer stuff), hopefully it gets here fast and i can tell ya about the stuff first hand..

from what i can tell, however:

controllers -
electric eye - yup, just your basic motion sensor.. someone moves, 120vac appliance goes on..

remote controller - (the button pad-looking thing), press a button, 120vac > on/off or dims light

transceiver - (antenna wall plug-in thing) receives commands from controllers and sends them to appliances

appliance module plugs into wall and switches/dims appliance based on commands receieved from transceivers

and yes, i think (with some creativity + work) these devices could solve the problem..

maybe:
place one motion sensor ealier in the haunt so gemmy #1 goes off first?
or
program gemmys on a time schedule using the computer software (this shouldn't be too hard.. and maybe i can make a tutorial or something if my stuff hurrys up and gets here!)

of course, i don't want to waste anyone's money.. so definitely think about it before taking any of me advice.. he heh

yar!
again, how much time do ya have to complete this project?

I've been working with Home Automation for 10+ years. I use X-10, Z-Wave, Insteon and UPB throughout my home to automate lights and other appliances. X-10 is cheap, but also has issues. "yup, just your basic motion sensor.. someone moves, 120vac appliance goes on.." It is not that fast. The wireless signal has to transmit to the receiver which then has to convert the signal and send it over the power line to the appliance module. In most cases, this takes approx. 2-3 seconds before the light actually turns on. X-10 is very susceptible to line noise. Motors, TV's, stereos and other devices on the powerline can create noise that will either block the X-10 signal or sometimes confuse the module and it'll turn on automatically. You need to add filters to these types of devices to prevent the powerline noise. Insteon and UPB are also powerline based protocols but are much faster and reliable to X-10, but also cost more. Z-Wave is a complete RF (wireless) protocol for communication so you don't have to worry about powerline noise at all and is very fast response time. I use X-10 quite a bit for holiday lighting since it is fairly cheap. I actually automated my Fog machine with X-10 (one powerflash module reported the status light of the fog machine so the computer knew if the fog machine was ready, before it would trip the applicance module to press the fog button for 10 seconds. Last year I used some of my Insteon modules for lighting and tried a software package called LightShowMaster. Was neat being able to sync the lights to music, but I would recommend a very fast computer (dual core min).

The Pod

Thanks Pod.

What did we do before the net and forums!!?

I noticed that $24 filter on the X10 site, now I see why / where it's needed. Given the low initial cost and now warned of the potential pitfalls, I still like the X10 for a partial solution using a "dedicated" extension cord from a "clean" powerline ... pending upon feedback from Ded Spyder.

Thanks again to both of you for great information.

Now to find a powerline with no TV or motors on the circuit .....

LT Scare, what you can do is plug a filter into an outlet and then a powerstrip into it. Then plug all your X-10 devices into the powerstrip. This way you'll keep the X-10 signals isolated and free of any powerline noise from the rest of your house. The other thing with X-10 is that is doesn't jump the electrical phases very well and you really need to have a phase coupler installed at the electrical panel if you're trying to use X-10 successfully on both electrical phases of your house.

Back to your original idea of a computerless controller with electrical capability, have you looked at EFX-TEK Prop-1. You can get an addon board and relays for it that will handle your 120VAC needs.

To achive your Gemmy challenge with X-10, you would need to use a computer (at least to program the older CM11A or new CM19A controller). You could use the motion sensor tripping to fire off a macro to turn on X-10 module A1, then turn on module A2, ect. Although I haven't used ActiveHome in a while, I don't think it was capable of timing things down to the second so you might be stuck with working in minutes. I use HomeSeer as my home automation software which controls my home, but it does require having a computer running 24x7 for it to work, also I think the software alone would exceed your budget, but it can time things down to the second with it. You could always download it before Halloween and use it for 30 days before the free trial period runs out. But you'll still need to but a control like the CM11A to use with the software.

If you could use a computer, you could try Z-Wave (since it a RF wireless solution) and ControlThink. Intermatic makes a very nice outdoor Z-Wave module.

The Pod

First, I appreciate your input on all of this, so please don't misconstrue any of my responses.

Originally Posted by The Pod

LT Scare, what you can do is plug a filter into an outlet and then a powerstrip into it. Then plug all your X-10 devices into the powerstrip. This way you'll keep the X-10 signals isolated and free of any powerline noise from the rest of your house.

Good tip, thanks.

The other thing with X-10 is that is doesn't jump the electrical phases very well and you really need to have a phase coupler installed at the electrical panel if you're trying to use X-10 successfully on both electrical phases of your house.

I have no idea what this means.

Back to your original idea of a computerless controller with electrical capability, have you looked at EFX-TEK Prop-1. You can get an addon board and relays for it that will handle your 120VAC needs.

I looked at EFX documentation - it said to download parallax Basic Stamp Editor. Looked at that. This looks waaaaay more complicated than I want to learn. I want to spend time making the haunt features, not learning and re-learning each year, seldom used software and running lots of wires. I didn't get as far as costing it out, but with all the adds, could be budget busting.

To achive your Gemmy challenge with X-10, you would need to use a computer (at least to program the older CM11A or new CM19A controller). You could use the motion sensor tripping to fire off a macro to turn on X-10 module A1, then turn on module A2, ect. Although I haven't used ActiveHome in a while, I don't think it was capable of timing things down to the second so you might be stuck with working in minutes. I use HomeSeer as my home automation software which controls my home, but it does require having a computer running 24x7 for it to work, also I think the software alone would exceed your budget, but it can time things down to the second with it. You could always download it before Halloween and use it for 30 days before the free trial period runs out. But you'll still need to but a control like the CM11A to use with the software.

Given that this is a seasonal issue, running a computer 24/7 for the period of the Haunt, is not a big deal to me. What I have to do on the computer may or may not be a big deal, depending on how "user friendly" the software is.

The ONE MINUTE issue might be a deal breaker. I need to time some of the dialogs (not easy because it's all packed and stored right now) from the props, but seriously doubt if any lasts longer than 10 - 15 seconds. TOTs will not wait around 50 to 45 seconds to see if the second prop will activate and just about eliminates any percieved character interaction. Would also create a log jam.

If you could use a computer, you could try Z-Wave (since it a RF wireless solution) and ControlThink. Intermatic makes a very nice outdoor Z-Wave module.

The Pod

IF - big if - I understand how the Intermatic and the Z-Wave work, the cost looks seriously budget busting.

The benchmark:
picaBoo F-105 requires standard outlet power, provides two separately controlled outlets. Programing is real time using buttons on the unit. Programs are retained when 105 is unplugged - also includes a control for an audio source. price is $99 to $110 + trigger. I think those cheap screaming mats can be easily converted to triggers.

how are you triggering these? did you hack the play switch? or is it a power on off thing? im not familiar with gemmy props and need some more information before making any suggestions

Originally Posted by LT Scare

First, I appreciate your input on all of this, so please don't misconstrue any of my responses.

Not a problem, I'm always willing to help with Home Automation stuff (X-10, Z-Wave, etc.).

Originally Posted by LT Scare

"Phase jumping..." I have no idea what this means.

A typical home has a 60Amp, 100Amp, 200Amp service panel (breaker/fuse box). The power coming into the house is alternating current 120VAC on two different wires which is what gives you your 240(220) outlets. Each of the 120VAC wires is a phase. The breaker box has some breakers on one phase and others on the other phase. Your 220 breakers are connected to both phases. The X-10 signal travels along the power source which means the signal goes to through all the breakers on the phase its connected to, but not the other since there is no direct connection. It can sometimes jump the phases through a 220 breaker, but its best to use a coupler to assure the signal gets to the other phase. Confusing, yes. But if you're only using it in one location that is not an issue. I like using X-10 for holiday lighting because I can plug modules in every room of the house for lights in the windows, and turn them all on with a single switch.

Originally Posted by LT Scare

I looked at EFX documentation - it said to download parallax Basic Stamp Editor. Looked at that. This looks waaaaay more complicated than I want to learn. I want to spend time making the haunt features, not learning and re-learning each year, seldom used software and running lots of wires. I didn't get as far as costing it out, but with all the adds, could be budget busting.

Could be a bit much to learn, but looking at the forum over there, John (the owner) seems very helpful and if you tell him what you need, he always seems to write the code for you. Pricing is $40 for the prop-1, $30 for the RC4 addon board and $10 per relay (up to 4 supported on the RC4 board). Another $10 for the motion sensor comes to $100 for two outlets which is approx. the same cost as the picaboo setup including the motion trigger.

Originally Posted by LT Scare

Given that this is a seasonal issue, running a computer 24/7 for the period of the Haunt, is not a big deal to me. What I have to do on the computer may or may not be a big deal, depending on how "user friendly" the software is.

The ONE MINUTE issue might be a deal breaker. I need to time some of the dialogs (not easy because it's all packed and stored right now) from the props, but seriously doubt if any lasts longer than 10 - 15 seconds. TOTs will not wait around 50 to 45 seconds to see if the second prop will activate and just about eliminates any percieved character interaction. Would also create a log jam.

Most of the home automation software is very user friendly (point and click). HomeSeer can be fully operated via point and click setup to do what you want to do time wise. HomeSeer can also be much more advance with writing custom scripts but it is not necessary for your use. Like I said, you could down load the free trial for 30 days to use it at Halloween (you'd just have to install it to another computer next year if you wanted to do it again, or reformat the one you installed it to originally.) You would still need a computer interface like the CM11A to use with HomeSeer, but you can find them cheap on ebay. They do have a new HomeSeer basic software for $49 but it only supports Z-Wave. The HomeSeer 2 that I use supports a lot more. Compare SheetI figured the 1 minute issue might be a concern with ActiveHome X-10, that is why I mentioned it to you. HomeSeer would let you control down to the second.

Originally Posted by LT Scare

IF - big if - I understand how the Intermatic and the Z-Wave work, the cost looks seriously budget busting.

X-10 works by assigning a module a house code and unit code. These are little dials on the computer A-P and 1-16. So any transmitter that sends a signal M13 will control all modules that have the address set to M13. So if your neighbor uses X-10 and you use X-10 its possible to control each others stuff (if the signal is strong enough to go out the house to the pole and then over to their house, but that's a big IF). Z-Wave works by adding a module to a master remote (press ADD on the remote and press the button on the module). This means only devices associated with that remote ID can be controller (not possible to have neighbors controlling your house). With HomeSeer you add an X-10 device by clicking ADD and entering the House/Unit you set on the module. With Z-Wave you click COPY Remote and Send on the remote and all modules from the remote are added to HomeSeer. Then you just create an Event assign a trigger (what will activate it, example: motion sensor), then set up the actions turn device A on, turn device B on (delay 15 seconds), turn device A Off (delay 15 seconds).... etc. Z-Wave would be a bit more costly approx $35 a module compared to X-10, but I wanted you to know some of the different options available to you and pros/cons of everything.

Hope this is helpful.

The Pod

Originally Posted by guitarist155

how are you triggering these? did you hack the play switch? or is it a power on off thing? im not familiar with gemmy props and need some more information before making any suggestions

When you set up a life sized Gemmy right out of the box, they are sound and motion activated (in my black light only environment, sound only) and use a small box/plug transformer for power. Also (IMPORTANT) the Gemmy activates immediately when you first provide power to the transformer. Cut power, then provide power again, and the Gemmy starts up the the "next" dialog in the queue.

To assure that my Science Lab will be ready, I've already purchased one picaBoo F-105 and a pressure mat. According to the instructions and the advertisment this unit should do exactly what I want it to do, but controls only 2 sockets for $109 (plus the mat).

Originally Posted by guitarist155

im not familiar with gemmy props and need some more information before making any suggestions

I'm with you Guitarist155, LT Scare do you have a link to a Gemmy that us unfamiliars could see what the prop is. I may have other suggestions how to trigger them if I know what exactly they are.

The Pod